tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17547394.post353336819960349089..comments2023-03-24T13:39:26.449-05:00Comments on Boris Bokowski: Step Up or Shut UpBoris Bokowskihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06344587055927544695noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17547394.post-68726985790792413522009-12-01T11:38:00.234-05:002009-12-01T11:38:00.234-05:00@Scott I think we are in pretty much agreement. I...@Scott I think we are in pretty much agreement. I am hoping we make it easier for people to contribute and participate. This is what I meant by 'we are making progress'. It will take time but lets hope the data will start to show it.Ian Skerretthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17602295352818028160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17547394.post-145164262472825842009-12-01T08:57:23.228-05:002009-12-01T08:57:23.228-05:00@Ian
"However, I don't believe there is ...@Ian<br /><br />"However, I don't believe there is a silver bullet for diversity or openness. "<br /><br />I agree that there is no silver bullet. I would go further, however, and say that measures that attempt to pass the problem off to the committer community (e.g. forcing projects/committers to jump through hoops...without any reciprocity/support from those that are profiting from the work) are doomed to fail. <br /><br />So far, in my time as a project lead, the EF has introduced and enforced lots of additional requirements on the committers/projects, but not enforced the project participation requirements on corporate members (excepting IBM...where participation enforcement is not needed because their participation is so high). In order to reduce their costs, the non-IBM corporate members do not sufficiently/sustainably support the EF projects (except, to a limited and varying degree *their* project...see project diversity problem), and so with IBM significantly reducing it's support as well, and the economy in shambles, the EF projects are starving...and consequently falling behind in their ability to innovate/create actual end-user value in the software.<br /><br />That's why I think that different approaches are warranted...at the level of group behavior/EF policy...rather than more of the same. <br /><br />"...but I do think we are making progress."<br /><br />On diversity and openness, the data do not currently bear you out. These are two very deep organizational/systemic problems IMHO, and they could ultimately lead to the destruction of the value that lots of talented people have worked over years to create (i.e. see the tragedy of the commons problem). I think we are seeing that destruction happening now...through less cooperation, less project support by the corp membership, and consequently less innovation.<br /><br />I, for one, don't wish to see all of what Eclipse has become disappear into the history books because of greed/money, ego, business, philosophy, corporate self-interest, abrasive personalities, marketing spin, inability to cooperate, NIH, exploitation of others, the history of tools/IDEs, or any other such crap. I also think this *concern for the welfare of what we've jointly spent so much effort creating* is at the root of much of the 'complaining' that some seem ready to ridicule or dismiss. These problems are not going to be solved by shooting the messenger(s).Scott Lewishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15783631237186844143noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17547394.post-2810459390794816322009-11-30T23:28:59.609-05:002009-11-30T23:28:59.609-05:00@Boris: Bug for the E4 repository access via Git: ...@Boris: Bug for the E4 repository access via Git: https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=296541Lars Vogelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15780848976283335301noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17547394.post-89824853195778301362009-11-30T22:26:48.985-05:002009-11-30T22:26:48.985-05:00@Scott
I think you are a great example of someone...@Scott<br /><br />I think you are a great example of someone that gains respect through contribution of great code. I realize you don't just talk.<br /><br />I do believe we are working on trying to encourage more diversity and as Doug S points out 'openness'. I hope git will help, we are also working on a 'forge' that will not require IP clearance, buildng build environemnt and other things. <br /><br />However, I don't believe there is a silver bullet for diversity or openness. Both can be intangible, people specific and situation specific. For instance, I would love to see more projects with up to date project plans, to promote openness. We have tried to encourage/enforce/beg for that but in the end it is up to the project leader/committers to make sure that happens.<br /><br />I think we should keep the conversation going but we need to start working on specifics. Somethings are going to be easier than others and somethings not everyone will agree but I do think we are making progress.Ian Skerretthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17602295352818028160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17547394.post-63877630351833497022009-11-30T22:12:09.386-05:002009-11-30T22:12:09.386-05:00@Ian
You say: "Talk is cheap; actions, code...@Ian<br /><br />You say: "Talk is cheap; actions, code, and other tangible contributions are welcome."<br /><br />My response to this is: <br /><br />1) http://www.eclipse.org/ecf (in my book that's an 'actual tangible contribution')<br /><br />and <br /><br />2) in the real world, talk (and it's more useful counterpart...listening) is sometimes necessary for actual progressScott Lewishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15783631237186844143noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17547394.post-43476143784400022962009-11-30T22:00:58.932-05:002009-11-30T22:00:58.932-05:00Doug, where is the "rejection"? Link or ...Doug, where is the "rejection"? Link or it didn't happen ;-)Boris Bokowskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06344587055927544695noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17547394.post-32380214655860175162009-11-30T21:54:22.169-05:002009-11-30T21:54:22.169-05:00Oof, Boris, there was some text after the link to ...Oof, Boris, there was some text after the link to the bug that describes how we got to this state. Please read it. Thanks.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14088309262879705593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17547394.post-81188519717302360032009-11-30T21:15:41.379-05:002009-11-30T21:15:41.379-05:00@Boris
RE: "What I did want to criticize wer...@Boris<br /><br />RE: "What I did want to criticize were repeated postings by the same people (not just one!) who blame the existing Platform committers, or IBM, or the Eclipse Foundation, for not doing enough to ensure diversity"<br /><br />I think it's clear that many people (i.e. you...and me...and others) do a lot to try to accomplish project diversity. Yet, I think it's also clear we (i.e. all projects) still have a diversity problem. When many good, well-intentioned people fail to achieve a mutually desired result over a fairly long span of time this indicates (to me) not a failure of individual competence, or effort, or will, but rather a systemic problem (i.e. one having to do with policy as an *organization*). That is why I think it's useful to 'complain' (aka communicate)...as any systemic solution/change is going to have to be found *jointly*...with *cooperation* among people.<br /><br />Outlining how people can contribute effectively is just great...IMHO...but I think more is needed.Scott Lewishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15783631237186844143noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17547394.post-9146884486840998782009-11-30T21:10:02.577-05:002009-11-30T21:10:02.577-05:00Doug,
(responding to "this will all end...&q...Doug,<br /><br />(responding to "this will all end..."): Amen!<br /><br />Seriously, why don't we lobby for government money to fund the "commons" work - what's the fundamental difference between physical infrastructure like roads, railways, sewers, etc. on one hand and core software infrastructure like the Java VM, Java language, java.util collections, MySQL, Linux, the Eclipse Platform, Apache httpd, etc. on the other hand? Both are common infrastructure, and it's hard to get that infrastructure created when you cannot make money off of it.Boris Bokowskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06344587055927544695noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17547394.post-56586569410797100302009-11-30T21:02:56.626-05:002009-11-30T21:02:56.626-05:00Doug,
I am not sure how the bug you reference can...Doug,<br /><br />I am not sure how the bug you reference can be read to be a rejection. All I see is a bug that's a few days old, with a good discussion amongst the interested parties on how best to solve a difficult problem. I did see the referenced bug with no progress for about a year, after a few comments, the last one from WindRiver. It's OK to blame an individual for not responding within a week, but after that, it's up to everyone on the bug with an interest of making progress to ensure the discussion is brought to life again. Let me know (preferably by cc'ing me on a bug) if I can help unblock anything, but what I've seen looks perfectly reasonable to me - in particular, where is the "rejection"?Boris Bokowskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06344587055927544695noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17547394.post-23515865859758854682009-11-30T20:53:09.421-05:002009-11-30T20:53:09.421-05:00Scott,
I didn't want to point fingers, or add...Scott,<br /><br />I didn't want to point fingers, or address any single person in particular, for pointing out that in fact there is a tragedy of the commons problem at Eclipse. I see that my posting can be read in this way, for which I would like to apologize. In particular, if you thought that my posting was mean-spirited, I am sorry - it was not meant to be an attack at all: just a couple of comments with a call to action.<br /><br />What I did want to criticize were repeated postings by the same people (not just one!) who blame the existing Platform committers, or IBM, or the Eclipse Foundation, for not doing enough to ensure diversity. My main goal was to state that under the current circumstances, the onus is on everybody else (not the existing committers, not IBM, not the Foundation) to step up and contribute to those projects that they benefit from.<br /><br />I also outlined in concrete terms how people who wanted to help can do so most effectively. Basically, don't spread your love because it will go unnoticed, but instead focus on one little niche that eventually, you will be able to own.Boris Bokowskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06344587055927544695noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17547394.post-29312023768147880422009-11-30T20:48:46.814-05:002009-11-30T20:48:46.814-05:00@Ian, I disagree with your assessment of Bjorn...@Ian, I disagree with your assessment of Bjorn's contributions. I think the history of his contributions is well-established and obvious. And public criticism of bad/not community centered policy is the only viable way that I can think of that can lead to appropriate change.<br /><br />RE: Boris and e4...I'm not making or intending any judgments about Boris or e4 projects WRT diversity. But to deny that the foundation has a diversity problem in general (and worse...dismiss or belittle those that are bringing up such a *systemic* problem) is simply to deny reality.<br /><br />And if you all know the problems WRT openness/diversity and yet don't do anything effective about it...then I would say that's a good example of a case implying that you (EF) should 'step up or shut up'Scott Lewishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15783631237186844143noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17547394.post-45948129738526730492009-11-30T20:43:38.581-05:002009-11-30T20:43:38.581-05:00Lars,
The e4 bundles are not yet mirrored, probab...Lars,<br /><br />The e4 bundles are not yet mirrored, probably because they are not at the same level as other bundles under /cvsroot/eclipse. Can you open a bug for this and cc me? I would be happy to explain where the e4 bundles are.Boris Bokowskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06344587055927544695noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17547394.post-88053458058493193502009-11-30T20:18:06.070-05:002009-11-30T20:18:06.070-05:00BTW, this will all end when we can write blogs lik...BTW, this will all end when we can write blogs like this without mentioning company names, when who we work for doesn't matter and we are all working for the common good and commercial benefit is a natural side benefit of all of our great work combined together.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14088309262879705593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17547394.post-23601785447567213432009-11-30T20:07:56.765-05:002009-11-30T20:07:56.765-05:00"The last example I know of where people or c..."The last example I know of where people or companies wanted to contribute to the Platform but were not received with open arms is from about two years ago."<br /><br />Let me point you here: https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=294931<br /><br />The Platform Memory View is confusing to most, we have a simpler Memory Browser view that our users like better but was rejected by the Platform committer. Now we have two which just makes matters worse.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14088309262879705593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17547394.post-82189270104944900662009-11-30T19:08:56.888-05:002009-11-30T19:08:56.888-05:00Scott,
I would definintely assert Bjorn is not ...Scott, <br /><br />I would definintely assert Bjorn is not stepping up for the Eclipse community. For the last 6 months he has a continuous series of blog post on what is wrong with Eclispe but has done nothing to contribute back to Eclipse. Sorry but opinions with no action have very little value in my opinion. <br /><br />On the other hand, Boris is doing the best he can to reach out to encourage more people to participate on e4. I think he has done a great job. However, Bjorn and others continue use IBM has the example for non-diversity.<br /><br />I agree attacking people is never a great way to address a problem. However, after six months of whining and complaining but no action from the arm chair quaterbacks, at some point you have to say enough is enough. <br /><br />Yes, we all would like to make it easier. I think we all know the problems. Lots of people are working hard to address the issues and make change. If people want change then starting doing something about it. <br /><br />Talk is cheap; actions, code, and other tangible contributions are welcome.Ian Skerretthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17602295352818028160noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17547394.post-81386451387170487052009-11-30T18:20:20.546-05:002009-11-30T18:20:20.546-05:00Boris,
Would you really assert that Bjorn or othe...Boris,<br /><br />Would you really assert that Bjorn or others making the tragedy of the commons point aren't/haven't 'stepped up' for the Eclipse community?<br /><br />I believe that what's needed is for new contributor/contributions to be made easier...wherever they are from...and given the difficulties with project diversity/project silos, IP process, and a general less-than-truly open culture (see Doug S's post), new contributor/contributions are harder-and-harder for all EF projects to come by. This combined with overall reduced participation and reduced cooperation among the commercial membership does indeed lead to a serious commons problem IMHO.<br /><br />Attacking those that identify such an organizational/group-level problem (or dismissing it) is a terrible way to address the problem.<br /><br />What makes commons problems hard is that solution of such problems is ultimately dependent upon cooperation and establishment of trust among the entire community...rather than accusation, finger-pointing, and mean-spirited personal attacks...which we seem to be getting a lot of today. e.g. see <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Evolution_of_Cooperation" rel="nofollow">Evolution of Cooperation</a>.Scott Lewishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15783631237186844143noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-17547394.post-33527881599238968902009-11-30T18:11:44.046-05:002009-11-30T18:11:44.046-05:00Are the E4 repositories also mirrored via Git? I c...Are the E4 repositories also mirrored via Git? I cannot find them listed on this website: http://dev.eclipse.org/git/Lars Vogelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15780848976283335301noreply@blogger.com